tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post3038037534902621423..comments2024-01-06T05:53:11.788-08:00Comments on Explore Fatigue: Calling Massanutten RunnersEric Grossmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12815195014020975781noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post-73675790193823869032009-05-24T04:00:31.084-07:002009-05-24T04:00:31.084-07:00Keep speaking the truth (as you see it), brothers....Keep speaking the truth (as you see it), brothers.Robin O Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04351522737934636481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post-76793343162455509362009-05-22T18:23:06.342-07:002009-05-22T18:23:06.342-07:00maybe i was a bit ambiguous. i absolutely agree w...maybe i was a bit ambiguous. i absolutely agree with everything you have said about heroism and athletes. BUT, that is NOT freedom.<br /><br />what you are speaking of is the freedom to choose (we could call it liberty).<br /><br />the fact that we must choose "deliberate intervention" to do what is absolutely natural is further evidence that we have lost the freedom that i am talking about.Mongoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384704900101433509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post-47489270805044458022009-05-22T15:14:14.783-07:002009-05-22T15:14:14.783-07:00We admire athletes. They not only show us what our...We admire athletes. They not only show us what our bodies really can handle (that maybe we forgot) but they also show us how deliberate intervention (yes, Bradley, there is an upside to civilization!) can help us to get better. Isn't that freedom?<br /><br />So we should embrace heroism if it inspires. We may want to avoid it, though, when it only serves to make some feel smaller.Eric Grossmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12815195014020975781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post-82877406608376885802009-05-22T13:58:42.049-07:002009-05-22T13:58:42.049-07:00not sure if you meant it for Eric or for the gener...not sure if you meant it for Eric or for the general community here, but i will bite on your question Robin.<br /><br />keep in mind that these are only my opinions -- i am not seeking to offend Robin or Grossman or Ed.<br /><br />running 100 miles is not in any way heroic -- it is natural.<br /><br />people that can run 100 miles are not heros -- they are normal.<br /><br />the fact that people believe that running 100 miles, or killing elephants with spears, or surviving in extreme conditions with little equipment, is heroic or even unusual -- is a sad reflection of how super-civilized our species has become.<br /><br />500 years ago a bear on this continent lived almost EXACTLY the same way that a bear lives today. i think the Professor will agree that very little true "evolutionary change" has occured amongst either our species or other species during that time frame. BUT, look at the insane amount of difference between how humans live now versus then.<br /><br />we are soft, heart-diseased, depressed shells of our ancestors.<br /><br />what is the price of comfort and security, of artificial harmony, of our husbandry of the beasts?<br /><br />the price is your freedom.Mongoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384704900101433509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post-84879322788690248912009-05-22T09:33:03.827-07:002009-05-22T09:33:03.827-07:00These thoughts jumped out at me in these posts:
Er...These thoughts jumped out at me in these posts:<br />Eric: I just think that all the things you are able to do on race day are explainable.<br /><br />Adam: I would much rather have the will to succeed, than the talent to succeed.<br /><br />Mongold: The point is to throw that deciding <br />self overboard . . .<br /><br />What a great discussion about will, motivation, and the "benign user illusion."<br /><br />In a conversation with Ed Davis yesterday, I mentioned that Eric is planning to run 100 miles this summer in one 24 hour period. Ed commented that Eric was heroic. I'd like to see some posts about this idea that doing something as seemingly impossible as running 100 miles in 1 day is heroic or rather that the person is heroic. It's not just that the task itself is heroic, but the person is. I didn't press Ed on it, but I thought it was interesting that he used that word. How does that feel to be thought of as heroic? Do you want to be thought of in that light? do you care?Robin O Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04351522737934636481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post-25217998855378783342009-05-21T13:40:36.163-07:002009-05-21T13:40:36.163-07:00Professor:
i doubt that you will get many bites ...Professor:<br /> <br />i doubt that you will get many bites on the wolf analogy from the MMTers. most won't get it, and those that get it will be horrified by its realities.<br /> <br />my impression is that you have still got some of this wrong, and i don't like being misrepresented.<br /> <br />having said that, i will leave the philosophy to you... this is your blog so you should spin it how you see fit. plus i know absolutely nothing about philosopy and i intend to keep it that way.<br /> <br />i will editorialize.<br /> <br />you are oversimplifying my story, and "The Beast" has nothing to do with "the image of a levitating essence inside Bradley that could “will” him forward despite his (predictable) bodily difficulties." quite the opposite.<br /> <br />there were two (equally important) messages in my analogy. the first you clearly understand -- that a being can be both untamed and calculating.<br /> <br />the second (and the more important of the two if you really want to be inside of my brain) you quickly discarded because you could not explain it. the wolves killed the caribou and then walked away from it. this is the magic of the Unknown. the anti-religion, the anti-civilization, the anti-science, and yes, Professor... the anti-philosophy. the goal of these four is to minimize the Unknown, to disenchant it. the point of the second half of my message is that you must embrace it. in the second half of a 100-miler, that is all you have -- the Unknown. when you have calculated and calculated and followed your race strategy to perfection, and you are still vomiting at mile 65, you must not question what you have done, but rather embrace what you cannot control. the point of the calculations and preparations - the "oiling" - is not to enable a "deciding self we all imagine at the helm of our bodily ship." the point is to throw that deciding self overboard, to leave the bull's carcass by the lake, and embrace the idea that, although you do not know that there are caribou over the next ridge, you must run to find out.Mongoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384704900101433509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post-74068145556454246392009-05-20T15:56:34.752-07:002009-05-20T15:56:34.752-07:00Thanks for your thoughtful response, Adam.
You ma...Thanks for your thoughtful response, Adam.<br /><br />You made it through a tough slog. I know what that's like. It does help define things for us, doesn't it?<br /><br />Congrats on a very respectable run in difficult conditions.Eric Grossmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12815195014020975781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3780660902133427157.post-71974601980872078282009-05-20T12:52:35.970-07:002009-05-20T12:52:35.970-07:00Eric,
I've really enjoyed reading your deeply phy...Eric,<br /><br />I've really enjoyed reading your deeply phylosophical posts. Although I feel "baited" into this comment....here it goes. I agree with parts of your post, but I have to disagree that a race performance is always explainable (I know you didn't use the word always). Sometimes there are variables and factors beyond your control that alter your potential in which was previously prepared or trained for. Lets take my race at MMT as an example. I was prepared and trained to run slightly under 20 hours based on my fitness and course knowledge. I ran 22:39. What accounted for the extra 2:39+? Well it was things I had accounted for and prepared for; heat, inclimate weather, vomitting, even two nose-bleeds(??)....but it was my body's response to those variables that was my demise as far as the finishing time. Explainable you say? Well, yes and no. I agree that all those factors all explainable, but my response may not be. I could have easily quit while facing my worst "feeling" in a race to date. I did not quit because of my will to continue no matter the result. I believe that it is that will/soul of a person that leads them to success and greatness in life. This deep and soulful will is an unscientific and intangible thing. Does this exist? I believe it does and is that voice inside that pushes me along in all of life's pursuits. I would much rather have the will to succeed, than the talent to succeed.<br />In the epic struggle of the caribou and the wolves, it is the caribou that recognizes his surroundings and survives the wolves advances by standing in the shallows where the wolves will not follow; exercising his will against theirs. Will the wolves tire?.....Cassedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06903493546022429763noreply@blogger.com